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Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 23 May 2012 :  09:08:41 AM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Watching Craigs Late Show (on YouTube) on his visit to Scotland/Arbroath, First Minister Salmond mentioned that if Scotland became Independant then Scotland would move from being part of the 16th most prosperous Country to being the 6th most prosperous Country in the world... He also maintained that in the eighteenth century (when Cromwell allowed the UK to again become democratic under a monarchy) if the Scottish people had been given a democratic choice it would not have been for continued subjugation to England or as part of the Union.
It is also worth mentioning that the U.K. Parliament shall always be run by the English as they have the most MP's. Scotland has a small voice of about 60 M.P.'s in parliament and even this, apparently, is felt as too many and some must go.
This is not like the vote that Scotland shall eventually have as it is open to non-scottish residents through TheShoppie and I believe that the eventual Scottish Independence vote should be open only to all current residents of Scotland to decide...

Choices:

We should remain as we are, part of the United Kingdom.
We should become and independant country, like Canada, but still with the Monarchy.
Major control of all Scottish affairs but remain as we are, part of the United Kingdom



Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 23 May 2012 :  8:14:03 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac

Watching Craigs Late Show (on YouTube) on his visit to Scotland/Arbroath, First Minister Salmond mentioned that if Scotland became Independant then Scotland would move from being part of the 16th most prosperous Country to being the 6th most prosperous Country in the world...


Wee Eck talks rubbish quite often, he's a politician after all. Given his party's headlong rush towards the hugely subsidised and unreliable windpower / renewable energy cliff I doubt we'll have a functioning economy after ten years of Eck-style independence. See my next piece below about what happened the last time an independent Scotland lost its financial marbles.

quote:
He also maintained that in the eighteenth century (when Cromwell allowed the UK to again become democratic under a monarchy) if the Scottish people had been given a democratic choice it would not have been for continued subjugation to England or as part of the Union.


I'm not sure what this is all about. Cromwell ran the Commonwealth without a monarchy in the mid 17th Century following an extensive and bloody UK-wide Civil War in which the Scots changed sides a couple of times. "Subjugation" to England (I assume you mean the Union of the Parliaments in 1707) came about as a result of the home-grown (and utterly bonkers) Darien Scheme bankrupting Scotland. As part of that deal England bailed out the Scots - and ironically, in the process, spawned the Royal Bank of Scotland.

quote:
It is also worth mentioning that the U.K. Parliament shall always be run by the English as they have the most MP's. Scotland has a small voice of about 60 M.P.'s in parliament and even this, apparently, is felt as too many and some must go.
This is not like the vote that Scotland shall eventually have as it is open to non-scottish residents through TheShoppie and I believe that the eventual Scottish Independence vote should be open only to all current residents of Scotland to decide...



About 10% of the population of UK, it seems reasonable to have about 10% of the representation in the Westminster parliament, no?

Emotional attachment to tartan, bagpipes and bigotry doesn't cut the mustard when you need to be extremely hard-headed about Scotland and the UK's place in the world.

And while we're at it - can you explain "Independence in Europe"? That's never made sense to me.

Cheers
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  12:17:45 AM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
Hi Woodentop... As I am one of the voters who chose "stay as we are" I would like the same questions/points you raised answered as well... I only repeated them to see how a poll may reflect feelings from all and sundry.

After Cromwell/17th century ran the U.K. as a Republic (after chopping King Charles's head off) and eventually restablished parliament and the Monarchy we then moved into the 18th Century when Scotland had the Jacobite uprisings in 1715 and 1745... I can only assume Salmond was referring to the Democratic feeling of the Scots then.

As for "Independence in Europe" I can only say you either choose to be party to a European Governnment and give up "independence"... or... you remain independent but trade as a country within Europe.. This is In My View Only.


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  01:45:49 AM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac

Hi Woodentop... As I am one of the voters who chose "stay as we are" I would like the same questions/points you raised answered as well... I only repeated them to see how a poll may reflect feelings from all and sundry.

After Cromwell/17th century ran the U.K. as a Republic (after chopping King Charles's head off) and eventually restablished parliament and the Monarchy we then moved into the 18th Century when Scotland had the Jacobite uprisings in 1715 and 1745... I can only assume Salmond was referring to the Democratic feeling of the Scots then.

As for "Independence in Europe" I can only say you either choose to be party to a European Governnment and give up "independence"... or... you remain independent but trade as a country within Europe.. This is In My View Only.



Hi Terry,
the Jacobite rebellions had nothing to do with Scottishness as such, they were religious / monarchical revolts.

It's been recounted many times, but there were as many "Scots" serving on the Government side as there were Highlanders at Culloden Field.

The traditional Highland way of life was on its way out by the early 18th Century - the paroxysms of the (not unanimous) Clans' Catholic faith in the Stuart claim to the throne put the final nail in the coffin.

Well, that and the arrival of the sheep.
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  4:16:07 PM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
As of 24th May the poll shows five out of six of us believe we should remain within the United Kingdom.. I heartly agree but shall not be able to vote if an Independence vote is called.

Scotland has nearer 8% of the population in the U.K. but have 59 MP's in Parliament.. If it is worked out on an MP per Capita basis we should only field 52 MP's for Scotland...

Also, thank goodness for the sheep, introduced by the English I believe, or we would likely never have been known for the famous Scottish Haggis.

Can you tell me Woodentop... were the Highland Clearances something to do with somebody's dream to "farm" sheep in the Highlands?


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  5:49:26 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac

Can you tell me Woodentop... were the Highland Clearances something to do with somebody's dream to "farm" sheep in the Highlands?



This man seems to enrage the SNP hardcore:

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/sinclair_john.htm
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  8:36:26 PM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
Hi Woodentop... anyway this prompted to me to re-read some scots history... thanks..
I am now aware that there really were two distinct "factions" of Scots from the 1500's onwards.. The Highlanders and the Lowlanders.
The Highlanders predominantly R.C. and speaking mainly gaelic generally supporting the Stuart lineage of royalty with the Lowlanders mainly protestant or non religous and speaking a "scottish english" and generally supported the Union of the Crowns 1603/4 and eventually the Union of the Parliaments in 1707.....
The Lowland lairds/landowners made lots from sheep farming and local people benefited as the English palate did not want kidneys, liver, offal in general, brains, etc., the "locals" got these "bits" at little cost...
The Highland Lairds/landowners tried to to do same with sheep prompting the Highland Clearances which were one of the historical ravages of Scotland (although quite legal according to the Scots Law of the day) and of course apart from some violence that happened as a result.

With the polls at present it still looks as if a minimum of 60% of the Scots population do not support Independence.. However it appears that the SNP are looking for the "protest" vote of the parts of the electorate that shall be against the existing government when they eventually call a referendum.


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
zzTop
Wee Haggis


zzTop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  10:18:45 PM Show Profile Visit zzTop's HomepageSend zzTop a Private Message Reply with Quote
I don't give a hoots man about nationalism. It is and will remain a method of control of populations. The only people that benefit are those at the top who we fight a die on behalf of so that they can retain their power and control over us. A pride of lions, or a flock of sheep. same thing in the end.

What I do care about is having my vote at a ballet box mean something. Many of my family members and ancestors gave their lives so the the common man can have a voice, however small. With the current system, Scotland has no voice. In my lifetime, the Scottish vote has had very little bearing on the national government. Watching PM question time shows the political system as the farce that it is. Nothing is going to change any time soon. The Lib Dems could have had a chance at change with proportional representation, but sold themselves for 30 pieces of silver to get the AV which nobody wanted. Short of an uprising, my great grandchildren will die of old age while Eton schoolboys continue to hurl abuse at one another while the speaker chides them like their former school master.

I've sat for days at a time watching the Scottish parliament in person. It is a light year ahead of Westminster when it comes to actually getting things done (which is to say, doing what the voters told them to do) and proper debate. Give me an all powerful government that works like that and I'll vote for it.

At the moment, the only thing that offers that option is Scottish independence.

There is an idea that Scotland can only survive with oil or renewable energy. That is incorrect. While both can be of immense value if handled correctly, it has been discussed many times by people that understand things far better than I, that irrespective of these assets, Scotland can go it alone. In fact, we've been managing to effectively go it alone for years due to more money pouring out of Scotland into Westminster that what we get back in "subsidies". What we are doing in reality is giving the wife the pay packet and hoping for enough back so we can go to the pub with our mates and be bloody grateful for it (Sorry for the sexist reference, I've been nostalgic for the 70's recently - I think it's due to the strikes and plummeting worth of the British economy).

Don't think that I'm drinking a toast to independence. I'm not. Many things will change for the worse as well as the better, but the United Kingdom is a spent force. We had our time in the history books. We managed to create the largest empire ever known on this world, which we did badly. It's now time for a new chapter for these islands. Call it Scotland, call it Greater Pictland, call it the United Federation of Clans. I don't give a Flying Scotsman what it's called or the nationality of the people within. As long as it's not a repeat of what we have now.


And as a bonus I'll stop getting constant hassle from the TV licensing for not having a licence even though I don't need it as Scotland will no longer come under their kitten murdering and cute little puppy punching authority.


(All puns are the property of the respective owners. No liability will be accepted for damage caused by deep groans or incorrect information given. The views of this post are the personal views of the fingers of the author and don't necessarily reflect the unconscious brain attached to them)


Edit: Oh, I voted for the middle option, but no Queen (you never gave a non monarchy option), all this massive expense on parades and "celebrations" when the common man can barely afford to buy a cheap bottle of cider (bloody Scottish government) reminds me of why I hate the monarchy. This happened in the 70's as well. If she doesn't die soon, who knows how bad the economy will be when the next jubilee comes round.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  11:05:44 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
zzTop - you do realise that today much of our politics and laws (UK, and Scotland if "Independent in Europe") come from the EU, though this is fairly well hidden by all the main parties?

Further, this was all predicted and discussed far away from the plebs, in the Foreign Office - see this (written 40 years ago prior to our entry to the EEC, my bold):

After entry there would be a major responsibility on HMG and on all political parties not to
exacerbate public concern by attributing unpopular measures or unfavourable economic
developments to the remote and unmanageable workings of the Community
. This counsel of
perfection may be the more difficult to achieve because these same unpopular measures may
sometimes be made more acceptable if they are put in a Community context, and this
technique may offer a way to avoid the more sterile forms of inter-governmental bargaining.
But the difference between on the one hand explaining policy in terms of general and
Community-wide interest and, on the other, blaming membership for national problems is
real and important.


(pdf) http://www.eureferendum.com/fcosovereignty2.pdf

All independence in the current proposed form would achieve is to change the personalities in the pantomime, but destroy a 300 year old Union which (in my opinion) has generally worked.

PS I've also been to the Scottish Parliament committees and main chamber debates; let's just say that the experience on each occasion was less than optimal.
zzTop
Wee Haggis


zzTop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  11:09:12 PM Show Profile Visit zzTop's HomepageSend zzTop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:

(All puns are the property of the respective owners. No liability will be accepted for damage caused by deep groans ***or incorrect information given.*** The views of this post are the personal views of the fingers of the author and don't necessarily reflect the unconscious brain attached to them)



tongue

quote:

PS I've also been to the Scottish Parliament committees and main chamber debates; let's just say that the experience on each occasion was less than optimal.



Have you sat in Westminster before? I used to write for a London publication which required much sitting on wooden benches. Believe me when I say the Scottish experience is light years ahead.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 24 May 2012 :  11:22:52 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by zzTop


Have you sat in Westminster before? I used to write for a London publication which required much sitting on wooden benches. Believe me when I say the Scottish experience is light years ahead.



That political heavyweight Cathy Jamieson decided to go back to Westminster after a stint at Holyrood. Probably tells you all you need to know.
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 25 May 2012 :  12:24:41 AM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
Everybody has their own views.. some have more access to the "workings" than others.. some interpret statistics/policies/statements in their own way.. However we do have democracy and this shall decide how our great countries proceed.. All the different party's shall use everything at their disposal to attain their individual aims..

As a "pleb", just looking on, I like to hear all arguements and vote accordingley.. The more views I hear, discuss, repeat (whether I agree with them or not) or otherwise can lead to my mind being changed.... I don't want to blindly follow some sort of doctrine.
As a human being I vote for what I think (at the time) is best for "me and mine" in both the long and short term.. I am in no way altruistic.

At present I think a continued U.K. would be a good thing for me!


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 25 May 2012 :  12:37:09 AM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac

However we do have democracy...



Terry, read the link I provided to what the FCO was up to 40 years ago. It's all gone to plan (so far).

Ask yourself this: why don't any of the major UK parties want to discuss our EU membership? All three of them told their MPs to vote against any referendum last Autumn.

Even the SNP, that bastion of Scottish Independence, want to subsume any nascent Scottish nation into the same mire immediately on detachment from England. What's that all about do you think?

I'd suggest that it's in the interests of a growing political class - not yours or mine.
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 25 May 2012 :  08:15:32 AM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
Hi Woodentop.. Unfortunately as far as the European Union is concerned I am a europhile and have seen nothing to change my mind..
However I do agree that a referendum should be held if power transfers to the Union are being envisaged or being put forward..
Ian Duncan Smith (one MP I have great respect for) shall badger Cameron/Clegg/Hague, with the backing of a substantial amount of backbenchers, for this to happen... As he reminds everyone there is an Act that says if any transfer of powers from UK to the EU are proposed or required to be enacted then a referendum should be triggered, as dictated by said Act.
However, Cameron has made it clear that a referendum shall ONLY be held on changes that mean SIGNIFICANT powers are transferred to Brussels.. all as his interpretation of the Act, this being a much narrower criterion than the one offered by Ian Duncan Smith.
As you say the other major parties also appear to follow Camerons statement as well..
I have no other answer except we are in the hands of our illustrious elected parliament. lobby, lobby, lobby!!!


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
Senior Smokie


woodentop

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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  12:30:57 AM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac

Unfortunately as far as the European Union is concerned I am a europhile and have seen nothing to change my mind..



You like being told what to do by unelected technocrats in Brussels?

I have trouble putting up with the opinions of elected members of any body.
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  1:06:27 PM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodentop
You like being told what to do by unelected technocrats in Brussels?

I have trouble putting up with the opinions of elected members of any body.



I am an unashamed supporter of the European Union and have not been convinced that the U.K. can operate outwith it.. Sure, some things happen within the Union that I don't like but you got to be in it to effect changes.. (the renumeration and allowable expenses for MEP's get right up my nose!!)

Then again there are quite a large minority of MP's of all partys' that feel the European Union is a disaster for the U.K. I just don't agree with their stance and especially with some of the crackpot ideas they put forward on how the U.K. would otherwise trade in the Global Economy.


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
woodentop
Senior Smokie


woodentop

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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  4:30:58 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Terrymac
I am an unashamed supporter of the European Union and have not been convinced that the U.K. can operate outwith it.



The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world, it's desperately depressing that people think we can't make our way without being told what to do by others.

We've tied ourselves to a political and economic corpse to benefit the interests of an elite.

I'm looking forward to the inevitable unwinding over the coming months and years.
Terrymac
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Terrymac

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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  7:04:36 PM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodentop

We've tied ourselves to a political and economic corpse to benefit the interests of an elite.




Ah Well.. we could go on forever with our opposing views.. I can't imagine which part of an "elite", whoever they are, would benefit from the corpse of a European Union.. I certainly don't think the Eurpean Union is dying, problems yes, but not near deaths door... I have read virtually the same rhetoric line as above but it went the opposite way..

"If the U.K. populace is not persuaded to vote for the benefits of being part of a united european economy then a small minority shall benefit with the general populace suffering a catastrophic reduction in living standards. (in other words the rich would get richer and the poor poorer)
The small minority referred to means those related to the banking industry (which are the UK's biggest businesses)..... Our very shaky manufacturing and services sector, that employs the major part of the populace, would actually decline if we were not in the european union.

The U.K. governments decision not to join "the euro" was literally wholly based on the fact that we rely on the Banking Industry as one of our biggest businesses. Is'n't it amazing how Banking Corporations, that don't manufacture or produce anything, are some of the richest businesses in the World, but I do concur that they are essential to our way of life today.


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
zzTop
Wee Haggis


zzTop

29 Posts
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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  11:25:35 PM Show Profile Visit zzTop's HomepageSend zzTop a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodentop
The UK is the 5th or 6th biggest economy in the world, it's desperately depressing that people think we can't make our way without being told what to do by others.



Actually, we are the 7th or 8th (depending on which organisation's figures you use). All are in agreement on who is number one. The European Union (Followed by the USA and China which are suffering the same economic hardships as the EU).
woodentop
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woodentop

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Posted - 26 May 2012 :  11:28:44 PM Show ProfileSend woodentop a Private Message Reply with Quote
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=82715
Terrymac
Master Smokie


Terrymac

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Posted - 27 May 2012 :  12:19:47 AM Show Profile Visit Terrymac's HomepageSend Terrymac a Private Message Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodentop

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=82715



Don't take this the wrong way.. I am trying to be a bit lighthearted and do appreciate you are a Eurosceptic.. But the above is like using the Daily Mail quotes to argue with a hard and fast Labour supporter... or The Mirror quotes to argue with a true blue Conservative..

One fact you should be aware of is each of the UK governments that have been in power continually ignore implementing, or just partially implement, european "directives" and "agreements" that the U.K. have signed up to, when it suits them.
As do France (especially), Italy, Spain and Germany.
This keeps the "trading field" we play on in Europe quite uneven. We definitely need a more structured Union but it shall take a long , long time and this shall certainly be over my grandchildrens lifes.


Terrymac
I have only one voice but I still strive to make a difference.
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